Exclusive Interview - Shane Jenek (Courtney Act) / Chelcee Grimes - Building Queertopia
Shane and Chelcee, congratulations both on your new podcast Building Queertopia, tell us what is the podcast all about?
Shane - Building Queertopia is our podcast, where it's a queer desert island in a way, where we have a different guest each week (and we’re several episodes in), we still haven't quite established whether it's a planet, whether it's an alternate universe, whether it's an island, whether it's the world called Queertopia. It's a fantastical sort of fictionalised place, but we just want to set our sights on possibilities, and the future, with things that would make the world a better place. We ask each person, a set number of questions and the first one is, what's their big idea for our new world Queertopia, what's the law or the rule that they would want to enact? And we've had all sorts of different answers from frivolous as a slow lane and the fast lane for walking, so that, you know, gays who want to walk fast can walk fast.
That would be me.
Shane - Then we've had, you know, much more deep and meaningful things about access to childbirth for same sex couples that isn't something that is easily available and we have other ideas about…
Chelcee – Like my one, the d*ckhead detector, where before you even step foot onto Queertopia, there's going to be an airport detector, you walk through that, if you are a d*ckhead then you aren’t coming on, so you get off right away. It can be anything, silly or serious, you know, or even quite frankly, impossible, it's just a good time.
Shane - I then added in Queertopia purgatory, so if people really want to come to Queertopia, but they are a d*ckhead, they can go into purgatory where they get to have an opportunity to learn and educate themselves and have a second chance of entering our Queertopia, where everyone's welcome. Even reformed d*ckheads.
On the podcast, you discuss many topics, some of them unfortunately aren’t accepted around the world today. Why do you think that is?
Shane - I mean, I think that around the world queer identity, I mean, look, it's not just queer identities, there’s struggles throughout the world, even in the Western world, but certainly in developing countries and many places that have different cultural norms, religious norms and that really impacts the lives of queer people. The numbers changing all the time, I think it’s 70 countries in the world where it's still criminal to be queer in some form or another. We know that a lot of those laws came from the colonial times, a lot of these countries didn't have specifically queer laws until the British colonisers came along and imparted their ways. I think that we're slowly getting to unpack that, we've just seen so much visibility, you know, certainly in the West, even in the last five years, it's amazing to see how much the lives of queer people have changed when it comes to media representation when it comes to, you know, marriage equality and different laws and such. We just hope that these conversations will sort of filter out. A podcast is a thing that you can listen to pretty discreetly, so hopefully, there are people in countries whose laws may not be as progressive as they are here in the UK, who gets to listen to this and be inspired by the guests that we talk to and the ideas that they have. I think it's cool doing a podcast in that way because I think we all remember being younger and secretly, watching the telly, I didn't have a remote control, that's how old I am. I'd have to stand by the TV and if anybody came down the stairs I quickly changed the channel and be like ‘nothing’.
Chelcee – It is true, talking about visibility, obviously, I come from a sporting background first and foremost. Just now, seeing as we did with Harry Kane wearing the rainbow flag on the armband, but then also you look at what else has been going on in that tournament and you know, Hungary, because they haven't made it okay and UEFA for now are not wanting to have rainbow flags in the stadium, it's so diverse. I also feel… I'm not going to talk too much about UEFA and where they stand on stuff, but it kind of does feel like in some countries, the people who are making the stance of what's acceptable and what's not, it's kinda like a kid in a school canteen who doesn't know which table to sit on. Unfortunately, the world is still not where we're at maybe right now, but hopefully with a podcast like this, it just makes more people feel accepted. And we're helping in some way.
Shane - I think as well, when it comes to the rest of the world, it's really fascinating to look at, say Pride Month, which has just gone and seeing corporates slapping rainbows on things here in the UK, but perhaps not in the other countries where their brands might suffer. And I think that it's really incumbent on brands who want to support queer people to have leadership, because that is leadership. It's one thing to slap a rainbow flag on your brand in a country where it'll do your business well, but in a country where it's not going to do your business well, that's really where it counts. I think we need more of that.
What do you think is going to be the best way for us to make it the topics you discuss the norm?
Shane - around the world?
Let's be big, let's be big and bold, Yeah!
Shane - I think that the way we bring about change is by hearing more stories, not just my story, not just Chelcee’s story, but the story of all of the guests that we have on. Different stories, for so long the narratives in the mainstream have been kind of one story, and it's the heterosexual story, this white story, the male story. All of those other stories have been pushed down and made to swallow like broken glass for so long. Now they have an opportunity to be told, and I genuinely think that something as simple as storytelling has the power to change the world. We obviously need to keep focused on laws and we also need to keep focus on those sorts of things that change but, I think really it's the storytelling because when people get to hear more stories, it changes the world because they realise that everybody is just a human and that this thing that they didn't understand, whether it's something as simple as love, when they hear that story told in a non-demonised way, told by queer people, then they get to hear it authentically, and I think that anybody can connect with that.
Chelcee - I wouldn't even want to add too much. I think Shanes hit the nail on the head there, for the number of guests we've had already on the podcast and hearing other people's stories. I think what we found even though I'm a woman of colour, lesbian and a scouser, sometimes I felt that there's no one like me out there, actually I have a lot in common with Shane that you would never think of, we have actually more the same than different and I found that with other guests that we've spoke to, we all get it at a time maybe where we felt we were so alone and coming out was a solitary thing, but now speaking to people in here with all these different ways of lives and upbringings. It's made me feel like, not alone. I think that's the way we can push it further. Just keep making more people visible, and making people feel more included.
I totally agree with that as well, because I know, unfortunately, some people do have a difficult time with their families (when coming out) but I do say that the second somebody does have a queer person in their family, their whole mindset changes to be like, ‘oh, it's not odd, it's not weird’ it just then becomes the norm.
Shane - And we've talked to guests on the show who talk about coming out and how their parents just had no point of reference for what being queer was, or if they did have a point of reference it was that they were going to die lonely and have a hard life. And we all know as thriving queer people that's not true. To be able to convey that message to non queer folk as well, I think it's important and gives everybody more strength and understanding.
How do you guys go about deciding who's going to be a special guest?
Shane – We have a spreadsheet…
Chelcee - our amazing producer over there will have ideas and we all just pitch in, I was on WhatsApp a few nights ago saying what about this guest and Shane has… actually, I feel like you will do a spreadsheet, you're so organised.
Shane – I DID DO A SPREADSHEET!
Chelcee - It's a team effort. I think, just anyone we come across whether it's on TV or Instagram if we feel like they've got a great story to tell, we'll ask.
Shane –We're trying hard to be diverse. I know that that is definitely a word that's bandied around a lot these days but we're really trying to work our way through the LGBTQIA+ acronym as much as possible making sure that we have as many queer experiences as possible represented, not just experiences of sis gay men and women. We've certainly been doing that with the people that we've spoken to. Chelsea and I both loved getting to talk to Yasmin Benoit, who is a black asexual woman, and just getting to… I don't know, I mean, I'm sure I do know, asexual people, but I've never had a conversation with someone who identifies as asexual about their identity. * Shane puts on a funny librarian escque voice * ‘I've read about them in books’. It was just wonderful to talk to Yasmin and to hear what she had to say and go ‘Oh, yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense.’ Now, I've got like, this space, and this voice if you're listening to the podcast to associate with this identity that is totally human and totally relatable, that’s the cool thing about it.
Now Shane, I watched you on Celebrity Big Brother having very deep conversations with all the housemates about Queer issues and topics, but those that stood out were with Anne Widdecombe. She was on the opposite side or had an opposite opinion to yours if you like, but you handled the situation so well and I think you got major respect from not only your housemates but also the public for that. Sometimes in our lives we do come across people who are anti the things you have spoken about in the podcast. What is your best advice for someone having a similar debate?
Shane – I get that sometimes the only way to get that attention is through sort of like an outrage approach. I recognise that approach can sometimes be really valid, I recognise that there are people who I follow, who I love that are way more radical and way more out there than I am, who are pushing the boundaries out further so that my sort of opinion is more easy to be heard. But I always think I've got the privilege of having grown up with parents who support me, I've spent the last 10 years, unpacking the 30 years before that processing all of it. I think I approached these things without too many queer chips left on my shoulders, I think I've dealt with a lot of that stuff so I know, when someone say like, Ann Widdecombe has an opinion about ‘marriage equality as you call it’, I don't feel personally attacked, because thankfully, I feel comfortable in my own identity. I understand the validity of my own identity, that doesn't take anything away from who I am. And so when confronted with that, I try weirdly not to have empathy for why that person has their opinion, because I know that she thinks that she is a good person, and that she's doing the right thing. She doesn't think that she's marginalising queer people, or maybe she does but she thinks that's the right thing to do because I don't know, God would want it that way. One of my skills is having conversations, listening and hopefully, explaining things in a way that people can understand. Also in those situations, I knew that I was never going to change any minds but I knew that there'd be people at home listening who might get to hear more of the story if I actually took the time to explain and to listen, and to understand, then just tell someone why they're wrong. I don't think everybody should be expected to be able to keep calm in situations where their identity is under threat, because I know that that's not a reality, sometimes things are triggering and sometimes you don't have immediate control over that.
“I just like to think about how I can be effective rather than how I can be right, that's always sort of my real approach.”
How can we come out of this situation with more understanding rather than less
I think you did an amazing job, because even from me watching it as a viewer, I think the way you handled it probably tripled your votes (to win). Even for me, when you were talking, you educated me on some of things that you were saying. You were having a conversation that I would like to say I’m on a similar opinion to yours, but I still learnt something. It was a nice to hear, you allowed people to digest what you had said rather than people going ‘oh gosh look at this angry person’.
Shane - Let's face it, having things shoved down my throat is usually one of my favourite pastimes. But when it comes to ideas, it's best to take a little bit more compassion.
Chelcee I have one for you, I love the fact that you play football, I played rugby from the age of 5 to 16 and only stopped because I broke my collarbone, not because I was outed and I wasn’t allowed to play anymore. During my time when I was playing, I was my team's captain and I never once received any hate from my teammates, whether that was on the pitch or in the changing rooms, which can be a horrible place for queer people. For me it was the complete opposite to what I was experiencing at school, my teammates didn't know that I was gay, how they didn't ’I mean HELLO’, there were a few teammates who I told but when I came out to my Dad one of the first things he said to me was ‘I wouldn't tell your teammates because things might be different or you might not be able to play anymore’. My Dad was fully supportive of my coming out, he wasn't saying you know, ‘oh, I'm ashamed of you, you hide who you are’ he was just looking out for me because he didn't want things to change for me, he saw how much I loved playing. So, my question, sorry that was a very long-winded way of saying.
Chelcee - No, no I enjoyed it.
Have you ever received any hate when you've been playing sport and how have you managed it?
Chelcee - No, you know what, not now playing female football, but when I was 9 or 10, playing in school, I was the only girl on the football team and definitely before the whistle blew it would be ‘oh look there's a girl on the team’, ‘she must be a boy’, ‘is she a man’ all of that and that’s so difficult being 9 or 10 before the whistles even blown.
“I think that's so important. Having a passion at a young age or whatever makes you feel good.”
That was my thing that made me feel good and before I'd even get to start, I was already at a disadvantage because I'd be getting called names. If anything, it made me perform better, I’m a weirdo, I like negative energy to thrive on, but I'm aware that not everyone is like that. Going into female football at the age of 11, when I signed for Liverpool, that was the feeling I got of like, Oh my god, I'm not alone. Walking into the trial and seeing all girls like me at that age was the most… I still honestly get a bit emotional when I think about it because I'd never had any brothers or sisters growing up. It was just me in the street playing with all the lads. I always felt different like why didn’t I want to play with the girls and make daisy chains and play tag. I’d be the one with my shirtsleeves up off with the lads playing football. Even though it was kind of cool and the lads were like, Oh, she's cool. They didn't really fancy me, I was always this little odd one out, then I finally felt safe in that space, I just loved playing sport from there. A lot of my teammates are gay, as well as straight but no one bats an eyelid. We're all there to hopefully win the game. Hopefully in the men's game it does become more accepted. I mean, it's still such a huge conversation that's going on around the game. But for women's football and women's sport, I think it's totally accepted. It is what it is. As long as you win the game at the end of the day. No one cares who you are you sleeping with.
That is so lovely, because my niece, whose a traitor in my eyes because she's going down the football route not the rugby one, is loving it. It's brilliant to see her play in a strong female heavy team where she isn’t the only girl on the team.
Chelcee - I do actually feel like that toughened me up though, I've got a sister now whose 12 and she plays football and loves it. I sponsor the team and I go and watch it at the weekend and we used to have to allocated out 15 to 16 pitchers with one for the girls. Now the whole field is full of young girls playing football and it's honestly incredible to see how the game's exploding and continues to do so. Hopefully now there’s no name calling before the whistle starts it's just like any other game. You're there because you love it and you're there because you're passionate about it, and it makes you feel good.
Okay, so a question now back to you both. On building Queetopia, you ask your guests to bring their big idea if you had the almighty power right now to change one thing in the world we live in, (unfortunately, left Queertopia briefly) what would you action right now?
Chelcee - I think it’s just about doing more things that we're doing now, having conversations, keep pushing it forward. The way it's going, like Shane said with the acronym, getting through each letter and having guests on which have different stories, even if you're not aligning towards that specific story, it doesn't mean you can't listen, take it in and go and tell more people to make it more accepted. To keep pushing it forward as much as possible. I think that's all we can hope to do.
Shane - We grew up hearing pretty much exclusively, sort of hetero normative stories about gender and sexuality and identity and none of us managed to be straight. I think getting to hear different stories, we understand other people and we have empathy for different experiences. The more people who get to hear a story whether it's people in the queer community or not, to hear stories of asexual people, or intersex people, or trans people, or even gay men hearing stories from lesbians, I know that there can be some segregation, even within our own community. This art form of storytelling and sharing other people's stories and amplifying their voices is such a valuable thing in the world right now.
What one other fellow queer person or ally deserves a shout out from you?
Shane - Today, I've been listening to Vincint's album, and there's a song with Alex Newell called Higher so I’m going to give a shout out to them and Vincints my new album.
Chelcee - I think I want to give a shout out to a guest that we just had on because I feel I learned the most about that episode that we just done. Yasmin (Benoit), honestly learning about asexual and aromantic…I think, as much as we can keep helping those who aren't maybe as glamorised as gay men and lesbians stories, like Yasmin’s, she was just incredible, I felt like she deserves a huge shoutout, she's mine!
Shane - I agree, it's cool hearing about those stories because, I mean Drag Queens… What's that word? Not oversaturated but you know, bordering on it, and I can speak as one especially as a RuPaul Drag Race, Drag Queen. It’s so nice to be able to take that audience who loves drag and loves Drag Race and take them on a journey beyond that experience and into the world of other queer folk.
I do actually have one final major question, is Spill the Tea allowed to come and publish on Queertopia?
Shane – Yes you can, we have the internet, we have publications, as long as you pass the d*ckhead dectector test.
Building Queertopia is available on BBC Sounds click here to listen
Note: Some of this interview has been edited from the original transcript to help with readability.
Image credit : BBC